The Unnecessary Science (Chapter 3)

As mentioned last time when I looked at Chapter 2, Chapter 3 of “The Unnecessary Science” focuses on natural law morality and, in particular, its intersection with sexual morality, which I myself examined in detail while reading Feser’s work.  Gunther Laird noted in a comment on last week’s post that we were making very similar arguments, which is in some sense true.  We both are arguing that once Feser makes the — correct in my opinion — moves to allow actions that don’t directly frustrate or pervert a function and to note that reproduction is not merely or possibly even primarily about simply producing a child but instead has to include raising that child to maturity then a number of things that Feser might want to prohibit seem to become at least potentially acceptable.  While there was a vigorous debate over that in the comments, for me it seems that if you are performing a sexual act that is set up to not produce children itself — and thus in theory perverting the faculty — it can’t count unless that in some way risks impeding you in having and raising the children you would be able to have and raise.  So if you do and as far as we know you are going to have just as many children in wedlock and are not risking your existing marriage (adultery) or delaying your marriage (by preferring casual affairs to preparing for marriage and finding a spouse), then in my view it is difficult to argue that it remains an example of perverting the faculty in line with Feser’s later moves.

That being said, it was also noted in the comments there that my interpretation was a bit of a trap for progressives, since while it accepted the arguments that some things that progressives advocated for were not necessarily morally wrong, it also advocated for a much different approach to sex than they would accept.  The reason is that I insist that sex for reproduction is the ideal case, and that reproduction is the main end of sex.  This means that I would at least consider all forms of sex that aren’t aimed at reproduction to be at least inferior to sex for reproduction, which means that, for example, I advocate that if you are not prepared when having sex with someone to marry them if a child results then you shouldn’t have sex with them because not marrying them if a child is produced is morally wrong by natural law (it’s not necessarily such by Stoic morality).  This is something that the progressive idea of sex can’t work with.  It wants sex to not be primarily for reproduction, and for all forms of sex to have equal value, even those that do not and cannot result in children or a marriage for the purposes of raising children.

And so I think one big problem Laird has in Chapter 3 is that he needs to defend that position and while accepting at least the natural law premise must argue that the main purpose of sex is not or need not be for reproduction.  The problem with this is that any such arguments have a very large hill to climb, since it really seems obvious that that is what sex is for.  It makes as little sense to claim that sex’s primary purpose isn’t necessarily for reproduction as it would be to claim that the primary purpose of eating is not to provide nutrition for the body.  Not only is that really what it does, not only is that what we’ve used it for for millenia, but it also is what evolution selected it and its specific traits for.  You can argue that sex for pleasure isn’t necessarily wrong, but not that it’s as important or ideal as sex for reproduction.

The preamble out of the way, let me now move on to my rather long list of specific notes on the chapter.

Laird tries to use an example of wet dreams — also known, I believe, as nocturnal emissions — to argue that since we spontaneously and throughout our life “waste” sperm, then masturbation should be allowed as well.  The issue here is that my understanding of the phenomena was that it was pretty much like bed wetting:  a brief period of time before we learn how to control our body better, with perhaps a bit of a loss of function as we age.  Thus, to argue that wet dreams justify masturbation seems to be same sort of argument as claiming that the fact that sometimes we wet the bed means that it is proper for us to simply urinate in our clothes and bed whenever we feel the need to urinate.  No, just because our body sometimes does something naturally does not give us carte blanche to do similar things intentionally.

Laird’s description of it implies, though, that it isn’t just a matter of a lack of control, but is instead something that occurs throughout one’s life, and so there may be a biological reason to occasionally flush out sperm.  This leads to an argument that can work, by arguing that it would be permissible to masturbate in order to achieve that biological goal in at least a cleaner and more consistent way.  However, the issue here is that this would not allow us to consider masturbation acceptable in general, but would instead only allow it precisely as needed to perform that specific function, which will be quite limited.  In fact, any of Laird’s examples that rely on finding a medical or biological reason for it to be necessary or at least greatly desirable suffer from that counter, which is that if that is the case it must only be done a) as is necessary to provide that function and b) only if there is no other reasonable option.  I believe that Feser’s justification for this would probably be that it is not immoral to subvert a faculty of an organism if the other option is the death of the organism, because obviously few if any faculties of an organism will function if the organism is dead.  But that’s far more limited a set of cases than I think Laird needs here.

(Note as an aside that you could make a comment here that if that’s the defense Feser would use then it opens up an argument that if someone demanded that a person, say, rape someone or else they would kill that person that person would be able to use the same justification to perform the rape.  I think Feser would take the Stoic line here and differentiate cases where your death comes at the hands of another person acting immorally from those where it’s happening due to purely natural causes.  If one acts in a manner that would be considered immoral only because someone else will act immorally if you don’t, your duty as a moral person is to force them to act immorally, not act immorally yourself and absolve them of the moral blame).

So I think the Feser could still blanket condemn pretty much all of the actions that Laird challenges him on here, and allow for certain exceptions in extremely rare cases.  That’s not going to get Laird or progressives in general the sort of sexual ethics that they want, nor will it strike any kind of real blow against Feser.

Laird then turns his attention to marriage with similar arguments, but ones that are a bit stronger because he can try to show that in at least some cases different forms of marriage could be in some cases necessary for actually raising children.  The problem with these, though, is that in general they don’t really work for that purpose.  He suggests that harems could work perfectly well, but the issue there is that even if we had one person who had the resources to raise the children from multiple marriages, children need more than wealth to thrive.  They also need attention, and in most harems there is no real way for the provider to provide the attention each would need.  Polygamy, of course, has similar issues, but Laird does point out that that could have advantages in cases where there is a huge imbalance between the genders.  However, that’s a very rare condition, and even then it might simply be better to increase the number of children per couple and through that and death rates eventually right the imbalance than to advocate for temporary polygamy (and permanent polygamy isn’t justified by that condition).

Ultimately, even progressives have to accept that the best arrangement for raising children is for their needs to be provided by their biological parents as best they can.  In fact, that’s exactly what at least some progressive feminists argued.  A while back, I was involved in a debate on feminist groups about what was called “Choice For Men”, which was the proposal that because women could get an abortion for any reason they wanted — which included that they didn’t want to provide support for a child — and ultimately that the child being born really was their choice that the man should get a chance to choose to absolve himself of support for it as well by giving up all rights to that child.  The best argument against that was that once the child was born it would require support, and that the best people to provide that support were its biological parents.  If this argument is accepted, then it pretty much precludes any of Laird’s examples as being in any way equal to traditional marriage.  Is it possible that we could accept them for a brief time if absolutely necessary?  Possibly, if the only alternative was the extinction of the human race.  Outside of that, there is no good reason to consider them marriages at all.

As an attempt to get same sex marriages into the picture, Laird appeals to a claim of their being a Form of Homosexuality, and so homosexuals getting into relations with members of the same sex and even getting married might well be them actually pursuing their real final end as per their Form.  The problem here is that homosexual acts are behaviours and behaviours follow from Forms and properties, and so it is entirely possible that homosexuals have disordered desires and properties that give them a propensity to act in that particular immoral way, just as someone might have a genetic disposition towards alcoholism without having to possess the Form of the Alcoholic and have drinking themselves into an early death as a final end.  Forms don’t seem to work the way they would need to to let Laird pull this off.  This is on top of the fact that if marriage really has a Form, then it would be about reproduction, which same sex marriages couldn’t conform to anyway.

What he moves onto, then, is trying to argue that marriage itself isn’t really a Form at all, but is instead merely a cultural artifact.  The big issue here is that if he denies that there’s a Form of Marriage, then his arguments for same sex marriage would be taken out as well.  Besides that, Feser derives his Forms from at least his view of nature, so to simply deny a Form exists because it is culturally recognized wouldn’t be a very good argument.  That a culture recognizes something doesn’t mean that it defines it, and if we start from a natural basis for marriage then it being primarily for reproduction, again, seems a pretty safe argument, especially given what I noted above.  As I’m sure I’ve mentioned, there is a difference between the legal definition of marriage and the “real” definition of marriage, and Laird’s attempt to turn the Form of Marriage into a cultural artifact at a minimum risks eliminating that distinction for no good reason.

I debated abortion a bit on the comment sections at “A Tippling Philosopher” and, yeah, I still don’t buy his arguments here.  The two main ones from the chapter and from the comments are that a) if potential rationality is enough to grant the zygote personhood, then sperm and eggs seem to have a similar enough potentiality to grant it to them as well and b) that potentiality and actuality are not the same thing.  The problem with the first argument is that the zygote does seem to be sufficiently different to have its own Form, and so to have different potentialities.  The fact that if nature is left to take its course the most natural progression is for it to end up as a rational being — which is absolutely not the case for sperm and eggs — and that being dependent on someone is insufficient in and of itself to remove rationality or the potential for it (we argued about this a fair bit in the comments on “Tippling”) makes me think that this argument is at a minimum far more complicated to make than Laird would like.

The second argument is a little better, but not the way Laird starts it. He made an argument about Feser ordering a drink and being upset that the waiter instead of bringing ice cubes brought water, which he could then claim had the potentiality for ice and were surely what Feser wanted, right?  My counter was that Feser explicitly asked for the actuality — or at least expected it — and that in that case being given the potentiality was indeed clearly not giving him what he wanted.  The argument though could be used to show that we don’t have to treat potentialities and actualities the same, which then could be used to break Feser’s argument that the potentiality for rationality is sufficient.  Of course, Feser does argue for why the potentiality itself matters, and at the end of the day Laird would need to give a strong argument for why the potentiality is not enough that doesn’t rely on the argument that it would provide an unreasonable burden on the mother or her body.  That …  might be tricky.

Finally, Laird tries to make a link to the idea that Aristotle and Plato at least accepted that under some circumstances infanticide might be allowed to create an inconsistency between that and abortion, by appealing to the principle of totality that I referenced earlier when talking about how you can frustrate a faculty in order to preserve the whole organism.  Here, it would be referring to removing an individual to allow the survival of the entire culture/race, which Laird then notes could work for abortions in at least some cases as well.  The problem with this line is two-fold.  First, as already mentioned, it would only allow it if there is no other choice, seriously limiting its applicability.  Second, why it could be done for infants and not adults is because to do this would require the agreement of the moral agent if they are capable of moral agency, and so for adults they couldn’t be forced into it but would have to agree to it.  For infants, they are not capable of moral choice or agency and so those who are responsible for them would have to make the choice on their behalf.  Thus this doesn’t introduce any real inconsistency.

Ultimately, this is not a good argument to use in defense of abortion because this in no way allows for the woman to have control over the situation and so for it to be her choice.  While we may not be able to compel her to participate as a moral agent, we could certainly consider her to be acting immorally in these cases if she didn’t have the abortion, which is quite uncomfortably close to justifying forced abortions.  If you can’t argue that the choice to abort or not is completely and totally hers, you aren’t defending abortion rights at all.

Next time, Chapter 4, where Laird tries to argue that natural law justifies some moral atrocities itself.

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39 Responses to “The Unnecessary Science (Chapter 3)”

  1. theoriginalmrx Says:

    He suggests that harems could work perfectly well, but the issue there is that even if we had one person who had the resources to raise the children from multiple marriages, children need more than wealth to thrive. They also need attention, and in most harems there is no real way for the provider to provide the attention each would need.

    Also, there are issues of jealousy/abuse as well. There’s a reason why wicked stepmothers and (in polygamous societies) harem intrigues are a staple of literature — empirically speaking, step-parents are much more likely to abuse children than birth parents are. When it comes down to it, many people really, really resent their partner giving large amounts of attention to someone who isn’t even related to them.

    • verbosestoic Says:

      I thought about the increased competition and jealousy, but didn’t mention it because I didn’t want my argument to rely on anything that could be responded to with “Once everyone accepts that this is the right way and changes their attitudes, it’ll be fine!”. Attention is something that you can’t provide by changing attitudes.

      • theoriginalmrx Says:

        I suppose someone could make that reply, although I’m not sure it would ultimately stand up to scrutiny. After all, harem intrigues were a staple of societies where polygamy was accepted as perfectly normal, and step-parents are statistically more likely to commit child abuse even though modern society thinks serial monogamy is fine.

  2. The Unnecessary Science (Chapter 4) | The Verbose Stoic Says:

    […] Last time, I looked at Chapter 3, which is the one that had the most overlap with my own analysis.  This time I’m looking at Chapter 4, which takes a tack that is much less interesting and, ultimately, one that I have repeatedly argued in the past is actually a very weak form of philosophical argument.  In response to Feser’s claims that modern morality is deficient, Laird is going to argue that Feser’s natural law ethics is at least as deficient if not more so. […]

  3. Gunther Laird Says:

    Hi Verbose Stoic, thanks again for the close attention you’re paying to my work.

    >I believe that Feser’s justification for this would probably be that it is not immoral to subvert a faculty of an organism if the other option is the death of the organism, because obviously few if any faculties of an organism will function if the organism is dead.

    Now, this isn’t actually true–in his perverted faculty essay in Neo-Scholastic Essays, Feser gives the example of earplugs as something that contravenes the function of a faculty (in this case, our ears) temporarily in order to preserve that faculty in the long run–i.e, listening to loud noises might not kill us, but it can damage our hearing permanently. So I think Feser himself would argue there are other circumstances where “subverting a faculty” is allowed other than preserving life, sometimes preserving the faculty itself is acceptable. And my argument is that non-procreative ejaculations help preserve the reproductive faculty, so in that sense they aren’t “bad.”

    You and theoriginalmrx raise a good point when you say

    >Ultimately, even progressives have to accept that the best arrangement for raising children is for their needs to be provided by their biological parents as best they can

    But as I mention in the text, this seems to be an empirical argument rather than a metaphysical one–i.e that biological parents tend statistically to provide the best outcomes and stepparents are more liable to abuse and so on. Mrx at least points at some statistical data to prove that, but Feser doesn’t in *The Last Superstition,* nor his other published work for that matter–I don’t recall finding any in his blog. That said, I should note that it still isn’t obvious that biological parents are the best arrangement for raising children–as I mention on page 138, Plato advocated a system where “no mother knows her own child.”

    In reference to marriage, you raise a point and I should have made this clearer, now that you bring it up–I was trying to say that Feser’s argument doesn’t work no matter what view of marriage you take; if you say there’s a definite Form of marriage, the gay rights proponent can just say there’s also a definite Form of Gay Marriage, but if you then say marriage is an artifact, the gay rights advocate can then just say we can define marriage however we like. Now that you bring it up I can see I should have framed it as more of an explicit dichotomy.

    Anyways though, my argument for marriage being a mere artifact is that it is definitely a contingent thing. As Feser would argue (though I’m not sure you would, looking through your past posts I think you wrote a defense of conceptualism?), things like the Forms of triangularity and whatnot are eternal and exist outside of human minds, even in our absence. Even if humanity went extinct tomorrow, and even if humanity never existed, it would still be the case that triangles have 3 sides with 180 degree internal angles and so on. However, marriage obviously would not exist if humans never existed, or if we reproduced in a different way, like through parthenogenesis or whatever–much like cars or hammers or whatever wouldn’t exist if humans never did, because we invented them, and they are thus just artifacts.

    Now, if I understand you correctly–and feel free to correct me if I’m not–you seem to think that marriage, while contingent in a certain sense, could still be considered a natural form rather than an artifact, since humans, considered as natural organisms rather than anything else, seem to biologically gravitate towards it rather than anything else. Again, as I mentioned with Plato above, this is debatable, but even if it is, as I mention in my book (albeit in a passing way on page 141), this doesn’t preclude gay “marriage,” although we might give it another name. We can concede that marriage has the Form (in Feser’s sense) of being between a man and a woman, but a gay rights proponent could claim there also exists Civil Unions, the Form of which entails being similar to “normal” marriage but between same-sex couples. And this would not require the nominalism or whatever that Feser so loathes.

    In reference to abortion–would you happen to remember the Tippling Philosopher page on which we debated? It’s been quite a while. Aside from that,

    >The argument though could be used to show that we don’t have to treat potentialities and actualities the same

    This is actually what I was getting at–it took me a while to formulate the phrasing in my book after several drafts and I eventually just had to go with what I had by the last one–but this is a succinct way of putting it, thank you. I hope you wouldn’t mind if I used this phrasing in the future?

    Finally, in reference to the larger (and unsavory) implications of the abortion argument–as you say, perhaps abortion would be permitted only in very limited cases, but that would still refute Feser’s position, which is an absolute prohibition of it. But you’re absolutely right that it’s not a good defense of abortion, I 100% agree with you that the decision should be totally the woman’s. The point of that section was to lead into the next chapter, which does describe a case where a regime encouraged and arguably mandated forced abortions in some cases, namely Nazi Germany in regards to Polish and other peoples in its occupied eastern territories–in chapter 4, I mention Aktion T4, but in regards to abortion specifically see this article:

    John Hunt (1999) Out of respect for life: Nazi abortion policy in the eastern occupied territories, Journal of Genocide Research, 1:3, 379-385, DOI: 10.1080/14623529908413967

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/14623529908413967

    • theoriginalmrx Says:

      That said, I should note that it still isn’t obvious that biological parents are the best arrangement for raising children–as I mention on page 138, Plato advocated a system where “no mother knows her own child.”… you seem to think that marriage, while contingent in a certain sense, could still be considered a natural form rather than an artifact, since humans, considered as natural organisms rather than anything else, seem to biologically gravitate towards it rather than anything else. Again, as I mentioned with Plato above, this is debatable,

      Plato is an extreme outlier in this view — even the most totalitarian of human societies have refrained from trying to set up a system of communal child-rearing — and his views (if indeed they are his real views, and he’s not just being deliberately provocative) are pretty thoroughly refuted in Aristotle’s Politics. So, I don’t think that Plato is a sufficient counter-example to the views that humans naturally gravitate towards raising their own offspring, or that this is generally the best way of raising them.

    • verbosestoic Says:

      So I think Feser himself would argue there are other circumstances where “subverting a faculty” is allowed other than preserving life, sometimes preserving the faculty itself is acceptable.

      Well, that one is obvious, so my comment was aimed more at the other cases you used where you subverted a faculty to preserve a different faculty. But as you note there are a lot of ways Feser could quite legitimately make health-based exceptions based on natural law that would only allow them in very specific cases with very specific ends.

      And my argument is that non-procreative ejaculations help preserve the reproductive faculty, so in that sense they aren’t “bad.”

      Feser, though, through natural law will never say that such things are just inherently “bad”. He will say that they are “bad” only insofar as their use in those circumstances violates natural law. If you can find legitimate natural law arguments for why they are really good, then Feser wouldn’t be impacted but would readily concede them. And the cases you give in that chapter do not allow you to defend the sexual ethics that Feser is actually criticizing.

      But as I mention in the text, this seems to be an empirical argument rather than a metaphysical one–i.e that biological parents tend statistically to provide the best outcomes and stepparents are more liable to abuse and so on.

      Actually, for Feser it would be a natural argument, that the two biological parents are the ones who produce the child and so if they can provide the resources necessary for it to grow up properly then they are the presumptive people to do it. Anything else at least deviates from nature.

      From a more general philosophical argument, the idea that they are the ones who are responsible for the child’s existence and so needed support does make a decent a priori argument for why they are also the ones who should be made responsible for its support and upbringing. Who else has done anything that would demand that they be held responsible for the child’s upbringing?

      if you say there’s a definite Form of marriage, the gay rights proponent can just say there’s also a definite Form of Gay Marriage, but if you then say marriage is an artifact, the gay rights advocate can then just say we can define marriage however we like.

      Well, as I noted neither works. Forms don’t seem to work that way and so Feser is not required to accept an actual Form of Gay Marriage as being a thing instead of as being a distortion of the thing, like a squirrel that only lies in the road is not a Form of Road-Lying Squirrel and so valid. So he wouldn’t be forced to consider it an artifact at all, at least by your argument.

      Now, if I understand you correctly–and feel free to correct me if I’m not–you seem to think that marriage, while contingent in a certain sense, could still be considered a natural form rather than an artifact, since humans, considered as natural organisms rather than anything else, seem to biologically gravitate towards it rather than anything else.

      Well, not quite. The main argument is that your case for marriage being an artifact and so being contingent is based on looking at the legal recognition of it and not what it actually is. But unless we are nominalists — and as you noted, I’m a conceptualist and Feser is a realist, so neither of us accept that view — we can still say that there IS an actual definition of marriage and that the legal or contingent view of it may or may not align with that. Most importantly, BOTH of us would claim that even if there were no human beings or anyone who could ever get married, there could still be a proper concept of marriage that is true regardless. After all, if there were no triangles in existence both Feser and myself would still say that there is a concept of triangle that would define what it would mean to be a triangle if one existed, so why couldn’t that be the case for marriage as well?

      We can concede that marriage has the Form (in Feser’s sense) of being between a man and a woman, but a gay rights proponent could claim there also exists Civil Unions, the Form of which entails being similar to “normal” marriage but between same-sex couples.

      But that also would not satisfy the liberal sexual ethics that Feser is criticizing, so it doesn’t really work there. It more fits into my idea of the separation between legal marriage — which would be the Civil Union — and “real” marriage.

      In reference to abortion–would you happen to remember the Tippling Philosopher page on which we debated?

      Here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2020/10/22/actuality-abortion-and-the-scotus/

      I hope you wouldn’t mind if I used this phrasing in the future?

      No problem, as long as you remember that my criticism of your use of it is that Feser argues for why the potentiality is sufficient here and so simply saying that they don’t need to be treated the same doesn’t really get you where you need to go.

      But you’re absolutely right that it’s not a good defense of abortion, I 100% agree with you that the decision should be totally the woman’s.

      More my comment here is that to defend the abortion rights that you need to be defending here, that’s what it has to be, in line with your view on Civil Unions wrt marriage above. Ultimately, the issue is that even if Feser would allow such cases — and he doesn’t have to — they don’t get you to the defense of abortion that you really need.

      • Gunther Laird Says:

        >Feser could quite legitimately make health-based exceptions based on natural law that would only allow them in very specific cases with very specific ends.

        Feser could, but I don’t think he really does. I actually agree with you to an extent–you’re right that my arguments don’t quite enshrine the “liberal” conception of sex, but defending sexual liberalism (or liberalism generally, though I consider myself a “cosmopolitan” rather than a liberal) would have taken significantly longer for the reasons you describe. Thus, in *The *Unnecessary Science,* I most often advance a fairly conservative view that’s still less conservative than Feser’s. His position, as I’ve understood it, is that masturbation is forbidden absolutely in all circumstances–so as I see it, forcing him towards your position (that masturbation is generally bad but permissible under certain very specific circumstances) is still a concession.

        >From a more general philosophical argument, the idea that they are the ones who are responsible for the child’s existence and so needed support does make a decent a priori argument for why they are also the ones who should be made responsible for its support and upbringing. Who else has done anything that would demand that they be held responsible for the child’s upbringing?

        Interesting. This is a little far off in the weeds as I don’t spend much time on this in The Unnecessary Science, but you could argue that society itself ought to be responsible for the child, rather than just its parents, because children eventually uphold society as a whole rather than just themselves or their parents–i.e paying taxes, which the child will eventually do once they grow up, supports everyone in their community, not just their mother and father. Thus, the state has an interest in taking children away from their parents and molding them into the best workers or soldiers as possible–as Plato seemed to nod towards and the Spartans actually did. I’m not advocating for this, mind you! I’m just saying one could make the argument.

        >Feser is not required to accept an actual Form of Gay Marriage as being a thing instead of as being a distortion of the thing, like a squirrel that only lies in the road is not a Form of Road-Lying Squirrel and so valid.

        Now, here I actually do raise an issue with this line of thought on page 140. Your response seems to merely kick that issue up a level. How do we determine whether something is a “true” Form (so to speak) or, in your words, a “distortion” of one? To quote from my book,

        the good,in the sense of fulfilling one’s function, is different for creatures with different Forms. To re-use Feser’s favorite example, it is good for a squirrel to scamper up trees and nuts, but it would starve if it tried to visit many flowers and eat pollen. A bee, on the other hand, is a good bee to the extent it visits flowers and gathers their pollen, and a bad, sickly bee if it buzzes around trees all day and attempts to bring nuts larger than it is back to the hive.

        So to directly tie in this quote to your response, the problem Feser (I’m not sure if this is your position as well) has to solve is this: How does one determine if a given organism is deviating from the Form it’s “supposed” to have or actually fulfilling a different Form? It’s easy enough to say there’s no such thing as the “Form of a road-lying squirrel” because lying on the road will quickly and necessarily lead to death. It’s nowhere near as obvious that there’s no such thing as “the Form of a gay man” or “the Form of a lesbian,” because merely being gay doesn’t lead one to death quite as quickly, and because gays and lesbians can contribute to the species in all sorts of ways even if they can’t have children, while squirrels getting run over constantly would quickly drive their species extinct entirely. So I think the onus is on Feser (if not necessarily you) to prove that gay folks don’t have a Form of their own and by extension their own version of marriage (whether termed ‘civil union’ or whatever).

        >Ultimately, the issue is that even if Feser would allow such cases — and he doesn’t have to — they don’t get you to the defense of abortion that you really need.

        Yeah. Like I said above, defending a “liberal” worldview would have been an even longer and more involved project–one I might undertake eventually, but for this book I was content with just picking away at Feser’s absolutism. Again, it seemed to me that as with masturbation, Feser, holds abortion to be absolutely and always wrong in every circumstance. If I could show that according to his reasoning, particularly using the Principle of Totality, there are cases where abortion is acceptable (even if such cases are exceedingly, exceedingly rare), that was enough for me in this book.

      • verbosestoic Says:

        His position, as I’ve understood it, is that masturbation is forbidden absolutely in all circumstances–so as I see it, forcing him towards your position (that masturbation is generally bad but permissible under certain very specific circumstances) is still a concession.

        Well, surely we don’t think that Feser would not allow someone to masturbate to, say, perform a test to cure their infertility. So it doesn’t seem like Feser is as absolutist as you believe, especially since the referenced Principle of Totality comes from him. The exceptions you carve out really seem to be the sorts of exceptions that Feser would carve out as well, and so as per the previous comment you’d be opposing his rhetoric but not his underlying arguments.

        you could argue that society itself ought to be responsible for the child, rather than just its parents, because children eventually uphold society as a whole rather than just themselves or their parents–i.e paying taxes, which the child will eventually do once they grow up, supports everyone in their community, not just their mother and father.

        This argument would be determining responsibility on the basis of what interest the responsible person or group has in seeing the work done, while my argument was about the person or group who were in fact the ones who brought about the situation that needs to be resolved. So we’d be thinking of responsibility in radically different ways there, and so obviously I wouldn’t accept that society has a responsibility to raise the child because it hopes to benefit from its being raised properly. Speaking ethically, that would also hew too close to Egoism for my liking.

        How does one determine if a given organism is deviating from the Form it’s “supposed” to have or actually fulfilling a different Form? It’s easy enough to say there’s no such thing as the “Form of a road-lying squirrel” because lying on the road will quickly and necessarily lead to death.

        It all relates to essential and accidental properties, but importantly in these cases we’d have to ask if it’s a completely different thing/concept or the same concept with some minor differences in the properties. So for the squirrel, it isn’t that we consider it to not have a Form of “road-lying squirrel” if it does that because that’s not ideal behaviour — even Feser derives that it isn’t good FROM the Form — but instead because we still want to call such a squirrel a squirrel and not something else entirely. The same thing, then, applies to your example: they are variations on a Form, not a different thing/Form/concept themselves. And then Feser will argue that when we look at that Form we can see that they are inferior and deformed ideas of the Form, much like a triangle with uneven sides is an inferior instantiation of a triangle. If you wanted to appeal to a different Form, you’d have to make it a completely different thing, and that doesn’t work for things like gay marriage for pretty much anyone in the debate, whether in favour or opposed.

        Yeah. Like I said above, defending a “liberal” worldview would have been an even longer and more involved project–one I might undertake eventually, but for this book I was content with just picking away at Feser’s absolutism.

        The issue I’d have with this is that the only real evidence for absolutism in general — although he is far more absolute about abortion than about masturbation — comes from “The Last Superstition”, and there he’s clearly focused on opposing progressive and liberal values and all of his arguments are bent towards showing how terrible those are. So, again, it comes across as attacking the rhetoric but not the underlying points. Add to that that if you could show that there were cases according to the Principle of Totality where it would be required Feser would accept that without much issue and it doesn’t seem like a very strong approach.

  4. Gunther Laird Says:

    >Well, surely we don’t think that Feser would not allow someone to masturbate to, say, perform a test to cure their infertility.

    That’s honestly the impression I’ve gotten not just from *The Last Superstition* but also his writing on his blog. While his other books don’t mention morality much at all, aside from Aquinas: A beginner’s Guide (and that’s a textbook for students rather than an analytical monograph), he has gone into the subject at some length in the blog entries of his I cite in the text. From those I got the feeling he’s an absolutist, or at least considers anything not absolutist, like your position, to be too close to liberalism for his tastes.

    >I wouldn’t accept that society has a responsibility to raise the child because it hopes to benefit from its being raised properly. Speaking ethically, that would also hew too close to Egoism for my liking.

    Oh, certainly, the whole ‘state should rear children’ is a little totalitarian for me personally–I’m just saying someone could make the argument coherently, if not appealingly. Even if I don’t agree with it, I’d need to spend some more time on it to explain how it’s wrong, beyond my own personal unease with it.

    >It all relates to essential and accidental properties, but importantly in these cases we’d have to ask if it’s a completely different thing/concept or the same concept with some minor differences in the properties…If you wanted to appeal to a different Form, you’d have to make it a completely different thing, and that doesn’t work for things like gay marriage for pretty much anyone in the debate, whether in favour or opposed.

    Hmm, interesting. First, I should note I bring up some responses to these points in Chapter 5, as it happens. Secondly, though–and this is an argument I didn’t make in the book, but I’ve been banging around inside my head for a while since its publication–there are Forms which are distinct from each other, with mutually contradictory standards of goodness but still related in such a way that they, each sub-form, is still recognizable as the instantiation of the larger Form.

    Take cats. They’re cute, four-legged, carnivorous furry mammals–that is their Form. But there’s also a subspecies of cat called the Sphinx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphynx_cat), which is entirely hairless! It’s supposed to be this way, mind you–the breed was specifically bred with this in mind and hairlessness is an advantage in certain hot environments, or in other words, its Form entails being hairless. So right here we have 2 different Forms which entail different standards of health. If a Siamese or Scottish Fold kitty were hairless, we would say it was very unhealthy–perhaps it was suffering from mange or some kind of cancer or something. But if we saw a Sphynx without hair, we’d say it’s perfectly healthy; in fact the sort of cat we’d want if (according to Wikipedia) we needed a hypoallergenic kitty with no annoying sheddings and that’s good in hot environments. Yet despite these different sub-Forms, entailed by being different breeds or sub-species I suppose, the Sphynx and other types of kitties obviously share the Form of Cat and all the other standards of health that entails besides furriness (for instance, having 4 legs, good night vision, being carnivorous, etc).

    The same principle, I aver, can apply to marriage. Let’s say there does exist a mind-independent Form of Marriage which entails that 2 people be bound together for the purposes of raising children and/or personal fulfillment. I say that just like the Form of Cat contains sub-Forms (any breed vs. Sphynx, in which not having hair is bad for the former but good for the latter), the Form of Marriage contains two sub-Forms, Straight Marriage and Gay Marriage, which are NOT completely different things (just like Scottish Folds and Sphynxies are not completely different things), but still have the (obvious) differences between them.

    • theoriginalmrx Says:

      Interesting. This is a little far off in the weeds as I don’t spend much time on this in The Unnecessary Science, but you could argue that society itself ought to be responsible for the child, rather than just its parents, because children eventually uphold society as a whole rather than just themselves or their parents–i.e paying taxes, which the child will eventually do once they grow up, supports everyone in their community, not just their mother and father. Thus, the state has an interest in taking children away from their parents and molding them into the best workers or soldiers as possible–as Plato seemed to nod towards and the Spartans actually did. I’m not advocating for this, mind you! I’m just saying one could make the argument.

      One could, but it would fly in the face of everything we know about child development.

      The same principle, I aver, can apply to marriage. Let’s say there does exist a mind-independent Form of Marriage which entails that 2 people be bound together for the purposes of raising children and/or personal fulfillment. I say that just like the Form of Cat contains sub-Forms (any breed vs. Sphynx, in which not having hair is bad for the former but good for the latter), the Form of Marriage contains two sub-Forms, Straight Marriage and Gay Marriage, which are NOT completely different things (just like Scottish Folds and Sphynxies are not completely different things), but still have the (obvious) differences between them.

      That’s not a very convincing parallel. Sphinx cats and furry cats still have the same telos — hunting small animals, mating, being cute, whatever — whereas the main telos of marriage, namely procreation, is impossible with gay marriage. Indeed, I’m not sure what the telos of gay marriage would even be, or why society would have an interest in supporting it. Mutual comfort and support can be provided just as well by friends or siblings, and sex between two men or two women, even leaving aside any moral issues, is of no benefit to society, since it doesn’t produce children and carries a higher risk of injury or infection.

      • Gunther Laird Says:

        >One could, but it would fly in the face of everything we know about child development.

        Maybe. I wouldn’t quibble too much on this point–but the point I was making in my book is that any discussion of “what’s best for the child” is going to be based on the empirical findings of child welfare researchers (for instance, statistics that show unrelated adults are more likely to abuse children, or that children need their biological parents supporting them and only their biological parents) rather than metaphysical deduction as Feser might prefer. Now, our host takes another philosophical tack based on responsibility landing on the parents rather than anyone else, but as I’m mentioning in another comment I’m not sure exactly what notion of responsibility he’s using so I don’t know if it’s the same as Feser uses or something else.

        >I’m not sure what the telos of gay marriage would even be

        The telos of marriage is to bind two people legally together for the purposes of paying taxes, consolidating a household, and allowing them to more efficiently support each other (via sharing insurance, joint bank accounts, and so on). The telos of gay marriage would be to permit two people to do this even if they share the same gender.

        Now, you could argue that the only reason those benefits exist at all is “for the sake of procreation,” but even in that case you’d still have an argument for gay marriage, because modern technology allows gays and lesbians to procreate even if they can’t do it through sex. Surrogacy, artificial wombs (and germ cells) in the future, and so on, and so forth.

        >sex between two men or two women, even leaving aside any moral issues, is of no benefit to society, since it doesn’t produce children and carries a higher risk of injury or infection.

        This is a weak argument on several grounds–sex between infertile people doesn’t produce children to benefit society either, but I doubt you’d say that a man and woman should be given fertility tests before receiving permission to marry. Anal sex might be risky and dangerous, but plenty of other same-sex activities are no riskier than heterosexual ones–intercrural sex, oral sex, tribadism for lesbians, etc. etc. etc. You’re best off sticking with your original point that the fundamental telos of marriage is procreation above all, and we just make exceptions for heterosexual infertile couples because they’re “aiming at” procreation even if they can never reach the aim for whatever reason. But as I said above, even on that reductive view, gay folks can procreate via surrogacy at the moment, likely other technological advances in the near future, so barring them from the benefits of marriage no longer makes sense from a societal perspective.

      • theoriginalmrx Says:

        Maybe. I wouldn’t quibble too much on this point–but the point I was making in my book is that any discussion of “what’s best for the child” is going to be based on the empirical findings of child welfare researchers (for instance, statistics that show unrelated adults are more likely to abuse children, or that children need their biological parents supporting them and only their biological parents) rather than metaphysical deduction as Feser might prefer.

        If empirical findings of child welfare researchers indicate that biological parents are generally the best people to raise a child — and they do indicate that — this would seem a point in Feser’s favour.

        The telos of marriage is to bind two people legally together for the purposes of paying taxes, consolidating a household, and allowing them to more efficiently support each other (via sharing insurance, joint bank accounts, and so on). The telos of gay marriage would be to permit two people to do this even if they share the same gender.

        Those things are too culturally-specific to be the telos of marriage — plenty of societies have/have had marriage, but not modern Western systems of taxation, insurance, banking, or household-formation practices.

        Now, you could argue that the only reason those benefits exist at all is “for the sake of procreation,” but even in that case you’d still have an argument for gay marriage, because modern technology allows gays and lesbians to procreate even if they can’t do it through sex. Surrogacy, artificial wombs (and germ cells) in the future, and so on, and so forth.

        The telos of something is what it’s naturally directed towards. If same-sex couples need advanced technology to procreate, that shows that same-sex couplings aren’t naturally directed towards procreation, and hence cannot have procreation as their telos.

        This is a weak argument on several grounds–sex between infertile people doesn’t produce children to benefit society either, but I doubt you’d say that a man and woman should be given fertility tests before receiving permission to marry.

        Heterosexual sex between infertile people still has procreation as its telos, even if it can’t fulfil this purpose due to some defect in the participants’ reproductive systems. On the other hand, homosexual sex cannot result in procreation even if both partners’ reproductive systems are working fine, and hence cannot have procreation as its telos.

        Anal sex might be risky and dangerous, but plenty of other same-sex activities are no riskier than heterosexual ones–intercrural sex, oral sex, tribadism for lesbians, etc. etc. etc.

        Yes, and what do you think the chances are of the gay male population at large agreeing to restrict themselves to oral or intercrural sex?

      • Gunther Laird Says:

        >If empirical findings of child welfare researchers indicate that biological parents are generally the best people to raise a child — and they do indicate that — this would seem a point in Feser’s favour.

        Would this change if such researchers found other arrangements (state-rearing, etc.) to be as good or better than biological parentage? I mean, if we’re going off what researchers have empirically found, gay folks don’t do that badly, at least in regards to child rearing. See:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting#Statistics

        “Scientific research consistently shows that gay and lesbian parents are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as those reared by heterosexual parents.[1][2][3] Major associations of mental health professionals in the U.S., Canada, and Australia have not identified credible empirical research that suggests otherwise.[3][4][5][6][7]”

        >Those things are too culturally-specific to be the telos of marriage — plenty of societies have/have had marriage, but not modern Western systems of taxation, insurance, banking, or household-formation practices.

        Oh, certainly–the specifics of taxation, insurance, etc. are particular to our present time and place, not universal. But the interesting thing is that marriage in human history hasn’t really existed at all without these things in *some* form. Just look at nature–there are plenty of species which are monogamous, most notably most bird species. But if you’re breeding lovebirds or parakeets for your pet shop, the little ones don’t really marry, with a ceremony, legal stuff, none of that. They just mate, take a nest box, and go from there. I imagine that’s been the case for humans for most of our history, going all the way back to Homo Erectus. So I could agree with you that two people bonding together has a long “natural” history, but marriage itself is a legal construct that wouldn’t exist without some kind of tax or household-formation practice, Western or not. Thus why I say those are the telos of marriage.

        >If same-sex couples need advanced technology to procreate, that shows that same-sex couplings aren’t naturally directed towards procreation, and hence cannot have procreation as their telos…On the other hand, homosexual sex cannot result in procreation even if both partners’ reproductive systems are working fine, and hence cannot have procreation as its telos.

        So then it has something else as its telos, namely bonding two people together (emotionally or for whatever other purpose) so they can better raise an adopted (or surrogacy-created) kid together.

        >Yes, and what do you think the chances are of the gay male population at large agreeing to restrict themselves to oral or intercrural sex?

        Straights haven’t exactly restricted themselves to vaginal or oral (at…worst?) sex either–icky as it may be, there’s a lot of man-woman anal sex pornography out there, so there’s gotta be a market for it–so I don’t think it’s that fair to single out gay men. And in any case, even if I were to concede that, it still leaves lesbians very much off the hook.

      • theoriginalmrx Says:

        Would this change if such researchers found other arrangements (state-rearing, etc.) to be as good or better than biological parentage? I mean, if we’re going off what researchers have empirically found, gay folks don’t do that badly, at least in regards to child rearing. See:

        So how many of those studies are legit, and how many are casualties of the replication crisis?

        Oh, certainly–the specifics of taxation, insurance, etc. are particular to our present time and place, not universal. But the interesting thing is that marriage in human history hasn’t really existed at all without these things in *some* form. Just look at nature–there are plenty of species which are monogamous, most notably most bird species. But if you’re breeding lovebirds or parakeets for your pet shop, the little ones don’t really marry, with a ceremony, legal stuff, none of that. They just mate, take a nest box, and go from there. I imagine that’s been the case for humans for most of our history, going all the way back to Homo Erectus. So I could agree with you that two people bonding together has a long “natural” history, but marriage itself is a legal construct that wouldn’t exist without some kind of tax or household-formation practice, Western or not. Thus why I say those are the telos of marriage.

        Humans live in societies with customs and rules, so of course they’re going to have customs and rules surrounding marriage. It doesn’t follow, however, that those customs and rules are themselves the point of marriage.

        So then it has something else as its telos,

        So then it’s not the same kind of thing.

        Straights haven’t exactly restricted themselves to vaginal or oral (at…worst?) sex either–icky as it may be, there’s a lot of man-woman anal sex pornography out there, so there’s gotta be a market for it–so I don’t think it’s that fair to single out gay men.

        It’s true, pornography tends to pervert users’ inclinations. The correct response it to make pornography less available and socially-acceptable, not to conclude that perversion must be OK after all.

      • Gunther Laird Says:

        >So how many of those studies are legit, and how many are casualties of the replication crisis?

        Maybe a few of them are “””casualties of the replication crisis,””” but as the citations note, studies from multiple countries (US, Canada, Australia, etc.) have found similar results. As “corrupted” as science might be or whatever you claim, the number of studies and the number of places which have carried out tell me there just might possibly be something there.

        >It doesn’t follow, however, that those customs and rules are themselves the point of marriage…[if gay marriage has a different “point,”] it’s not the same kind of thing.

        Yeah, you could argue for that, but as I mention in my book, if you don’t want to call such things marriage, you could call them civil unions, as some do. So marriage would have the telos of procreation and thus be between heterosexuals only, as you argue, but we have a different thing, civil unions, whose telos is what I mentioned (tax, household formation, etc. without necessarily involving procreation).

        >It’s true, pornography tends to pervert users’ inclinations. The correct response it to make pornography less available and socially-acceptable, not to conclude that perversion must be OK after all.

        Well, it’s not just pornography. I didn’t want to go too far into the weeds, but straight people have been having anal sex for much longer than either Pornhub or Grindr have ever existed. In Sumer and Babylon, for instance, anal sex between heterosexual couples was seen as an acceptable form of contraception:

        https://www.ancient.eu/article/688/love-sex-and-marriage-in-ancient-mesopotamia/

        Again, I don’t want to get too far into the debate with this sort of thing, the point I was making is that focusing on the “risky” nature of same-sex relations isn’t very productive. Anal sex isn’t the exclusive province of gay men, and aside from that, yet again most forms of lesbian sex aren’t as “risky,” so it’d probably be better for us to concentrate the debate on whether or not marriage has a telos, and either way, if there isn’t either a variant of marriage or a different thing entirely that has the telos of giving some analogous benefits to people of the same gender.

      • theoriginalmrx Says:

        Maybe a few of them are “””casualties of the replication crisis,””” but as the citations note, studies from multiple countries (US, Canada, Australia, etc.) have found similar results. As “corrupted” as science might be or whatever you claim, the number of studies and the number of places which have carried out tell me there just might possibly be something there.

        And as the article notes, those studies have similar methodological problems (mostly relating to small, unrepresentative sample sizes). Repeating an unreliable study doesn’t get you a reliable study, it gets you two unreliable studies.

        I’m not sure why you put “corrupted” in quotation marks, since the word is yours, not mine. Nor is the replication crisis just something I’ve claimed; it’s a well-known phenomenon, and I’m surprised if you haven’t heard of it before.

        Yeah, you could argue for that, but as I mention in my book, if you don’t want to call such things marriage, you could call them civil unions, as some do.

        I do not think that any country with civil unions hasn’t gone on to introduce gay marriage. Virtually no-one actually wants civil unions as an end-point; they want marriage, and only ever supported civil unions as a stepping-stone to that.

        So marriage would have the telos of procreation and thus be between heterosexuals only, as you argue, but we have a different thing, civil unions, whose telos is what I mentioned (tax, household formation, etc. without necessarily involving procreation).

        But then you still have the problem that “tax, household formation, etc.” are only intelligible tele in the context of modern societies. In a pre-modern society with no regular taxes where married couples don’t form new households, none of these benefits would apply.

        Again, I don’t want to get too far into the debate with this sort of thing, the point I was making is that focusing on the “risky” nature of same-sex relations isn’t very productive.

        I originally brought up the risky nature of same-sex relations as one point among several (“Mutual comfort and support can be provided just as well by friends or siblings, and sex between two men or two women, even leaving aside any moral issues, is of no benefit to society, since it doesn’t produce children and carries a higher risk of injury or infection”). You have focused on it far more than I did.

      • Gunther Laird Says:

        >And as the article notes, those studies have similar methodological problems (mostly relating to small, unrepresentative sample sizes).

        As the article also notes, more recent studies have found similar results but with better sample sizes and so on. For instance, the 2020 study had a more robust sample size of nearly 3000 kids.

        >A significant increase in methodological rigor was achieved in a 2020 study by Deni Mazrekaj at University of Oxford, Kristof De Witte and Sofie Cabus at KU Leuven published in the American Sociological Review.[33] The authors used administrative longitudinal data on the entire population of children born between 1998 and 2007 in the Netherlands, which was the first country to legalize same-sex marriage. They followed the educational performance of 2,971 children with same-sex parents and over a million children with different-sex parents from birth. This was the first study to address how children who were actually raised by same-sex parents from birth (instead of happening to live with a same-sex couple at some point in time) perform in school while retaining a large representative sample.

        Now, maybe that one’s suffering from the replication crisis too and the authors are just taking us for a ride. The problem is, one could say the same of your chosen studies about the superiority of biological parents over step-parents and so on–I’m not aware of any evidence that empirical researchers who happen to buttress your preferred philosophical conclusions are any more honest or any less venal than those who don’t.

        >I do not think that any country with civil unions hasn’t gone on to introduce gay marriage.

        Looking it up on Wikipedia, most countries have, but there are a couple that haven’t. A few, actually.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union#List_of_jurisdictions_recognizing_same-sex_unions

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_union_legislation

        >There are currently 14 countries that have an alternative form of legal recognition other than marriage on a national level. Those are Andorra, Chile, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Israel, Italy, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Slovenia and Switzerland.

        Now, it is true that “Civil unions are viewed by LGBT rights campaigners as a “first step” towards establishing same-sex marriage, as civil unions are viewed by supporters of LGBT rights as a “separate but equal” or “second class” status” (according to the first article), but it seems to me this is because marriages have a few benefits civil unions don’t. Looking it up (https://www.rocketlawyer.com/article/civil-union-vs-marriage-whats-the-difference-cb.rl), civil unions in the US lack Social Security recognition, the ability to file taxes jointly, and a couple of other things; I assume the situation is similar for European countries. So I figure if the benefits of civil unions matched those of marriage, gay folks would be happier to accept that rather than marriage.

        >In a pre-modern society with no regular taxes where married couples don’t form new households, none of these benefits would apply.

        Yeah, but even in pre-modern societies there was always some benefit to marriage beyond just having children. In the pre-modern societies you mention, they might have not had our elaborate systems of taxation and health insurance and so on, but they did have laws and/or customs regarding inheritance, making alliances between groups through marriage, and some other stuff beyond producing babies. So it’s not clear to me why it’s impossible there might be a Form of Gay/Non-Procreative Marriage, the telos of which was (and still is) to, say, unify a couple of clans through a matrimonial bond, or make it easier for two people to decide who gets the other’s property if one dies, or something.

        >I originally brought up the risky nature of same-sex relations as one point among several

        Fair enough, I suppose it was foolish of me to have spent time on the subject instead of just ignoring it. So then let’s look the other point you brought up:

        >Mutual comfort and support can be provided just as well by friends or siblings

        This actually strengthens the case for same-sex marriage, not weakens it. Mutual comfort and support are great, but the benefits of marriage I’ve been describing above–tax and insurance in the modern day, inheritance and alliances in pre-modern contexts–are a little more concrete. Cohabitation agreements that would provide such benefits to friends and siblings (not just *sexual* partners, but entirely platonic ones, like say two straight male friends who live together and want to file taxes jointly, or ensure the friend keeps the house if one dies) would be very useful to a lot of people. Now, you could argue that such “cohabitation agreements” aren’t really marriage, but as I said above, if you were to call them civil unions but made sure they were on par with marriage in terms of benefits, I think a lot of people–gay and straight alike–would be fine with that.

    • verbosestoic Says:

      From those I got the feeling he’s an absolutist, or at least considers anything not absolutist, like your position, to be too close to liberalism for his tastes.

      Well, he certainly would consider my position and the position I derive from his natural law theory to be too liberal, absolutely, but I don’t think that also applies to legitimate medical cases, especially given that the only reason he would ever invoke the Principle of Totality is FOR those cases. So I think that you needed more examples like mine if you wanted to challenge his absolutism about sexual ethics.

      Oh, certainly, the whole ‘state should rear children’ is a little totalitarian for me personally–I’m just saying someone could make the argument coherently, if not appealingly.
      Even if I don’t agree with it, I’d need to spend some more time on it to explain how it’s wrong, beyond my own personal unease with it.

      To be clear, here, my objections are not personal but are philosophical. The first is that to make that argument you have to be using a completely different notion of responsibility from what my argument used, and it isn’t clear that that notion of responsibility is at all viable. The second is that it turns morality into Egoism, but Egoism philosophically is a pretty weak moral system and so any view that relies on or leans that way is suspect from the start. So more argumentation than that would be needed from the proponent before it could be considered a credible position.

      Take cats. They’re cute, four-legged, carnivorous furry mammals–that is their Form. But there’s also a subspecies of cat called the Sphinx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphynx_cat), which is entirely hairless! It’s supposed to be this way, mind you–the breed was specifically bred with this in mind and hairlessness is an advantage in certain hot environments, or in other words, its Form entails being hairless.

      From my memory, Feser already deals with cases like this, with examples like what happens if a cat was born with three legs or has three legs. The easiest answer is, of course, going to be that whether a cat is furry or not is an accidental and not essential property, as we’d still call a cat that lost all of its hair a cat, and so we still do that for these ones as well even though they were born without hair and it is a defining characteristic of the breed that they don’t have hair. The more advanced one that I do recall Feser taking is that while in the past we defined the Form based on such visible properties and so ran into such problems, we can now with modern science make a better stab at it with things like genetics and breeding history to define what the Form really is. There’s nothing that says that it has to be easy to find the Forms, just that it can be done.

      Let’s say there does exist a mind-independent Form of Marriage which entails that 2 people be bound together for the purposes of raising children and/or personal fulfillment. I say that just like the Form of Cat contains sub-Forms (any breed vs. Sphynx, in which not having hair is bad for the former but good for the latter), the Form of Marriage contains two sub-Forms, Straight Marriage and Gay Marriage, which are NOT completely different things (just like Scottish Folds and Sphynxies are not completely different things), but still have the (obvious) differences between them.

      You would need to get agreement on what the Form/concept of Marriage itself is, and in doing so answer how a Gay Marriage which cannot produce children from the union fits the concept of Marriage itself. After all, two friends could easily form a partnership to raise children, but we wouldn’t call that a marriage by any stretch. So you’d need to focus on the relationship being one of love and/or sexual, but then you walk into Feser’s arguments about what both are naturally for. At that point, we aren’t talking about different Forms anymore, as we’d be arguing over whether being able to produce children from the union is an essential property of marriage, which is taking us right back to the original debate.

      • Gunther Laird Says:

        >So I think that you needed more examples like mine if you wanted to challenge his absolutism about sexual ethics.

        That is fair, your examples were useful–if only I’d thought of them sooner! But I suppose that is the advantage of having a reviewer spend a lot of time on my work, haha.

        >using a completely different notion of responsibility from what my argument used, and it isn’t clear that that notion of responsibility is at all viable. The second is that it turns morality into Egoism, but Egoism philosophically is a pretty weak moral system and so any view that relies on or leans that way is suspect from the start.

        In this case, could you explain what definition of responsibility you were using, and how it differs from egoism? You’ll have to excuse me, I’m not familiar with egoism–as I’ve mentioned, I’m not a professional philosopher and what I know of the subject comes mainly from reading Feser and the works he cites, and he hasn’t discussed egoism very much.

        >From my memory, Feser already deals with cases like this, with examples like what happens if a cat was born with three legs or has three legs.

        Yes, ‘Aristotelian categoricals’ as derived by Philippa Foot, from what I recall of *Aquinas: A Beginner’s Guide.* I have my own spin on the subject, as you’ll see in the upcoming chapters.

        >After all, two friends could easily form a partnership to raise children, but we wouldn’t call that a marriage by any stretch. So you’d need to focus on the relationship being one of love and/or sexual

        This is actually not true. I’m not just being obstinate, I mean there are literally marriages explicitly intended to be non-sexual, either from the beginning or after having been agreed upon by the husband and wife.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephite_marriage

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariage_blanc

        There also seem to be a few stories of Christian saints getting married but not having sex, passed down as tradition:

        https://search.library.utoronto.ca/details?8450672&uuid=68bb4193-a6c2-44b3-aa37-3c6d96bbd8f2

        So…yeah, we can and often do call unions between two people who aren’t having children, or even sex, ‘marriage.’ This tells me that the link between marriage and procreation is rather more tenuous than Feser or you (to a lesser extent, of course, as your position is less absolutist than his) seem to make it out to be. That being the case, gay marriage strikes me as less a “violation” of the Form of Marriage than just a derivative of it, much like Josephite marriages or “blanc marriages” are marriages despite being non-procreative.

      • verbosestoic Says:

        That is fair, your examples were useful–if only I’d thought of them sooner! But I suppose that is the advantage of having a reviewer spend a lot of time on my work, haha.

        Well, actually, I came up with them while reading Feser’s work in preparation for reading yours. His view clashes with my view because mine treats sex and reproduction as indifferents and so not inherently virtuous or vicious, and so his blanket condemnation of non-reproductive sex clashes with that. As noted, though, my view doesn’t really save the progressive view either because my clash with that view is that it both treats sex as too important and not important enough: too important in the sense that being deprived of the sex you want is seen as completely unacceptable because it deprives them of that pleasure, but also not important enough in that it doesn’t recognize that the strength of the drive and the pleasure it gives can strongly influence actions towards the immoral.

        In this case, could you explain what definition of responsibility you were using, and how it differs from egoism?

        The definition of responsibility that I’m using is the idea of direct responsibility: through the actions of the two people involved the child is born and needs support, and so the two people responsible for the situation should be presumptively held responsible for that support that only arises because of what they, indeed, were responsible for through their actions and choices. The argument you raised says that we can say that society is responsible for the support and raising of that child because they benefit from its being raised properly. This, then, ties into the Egoistic motivation that they should be held morally responsible for the raising of the child so that they can ensure that the child is raised in a way that most benefits them. Egoism, as a moral theory, states that you are morally obligated to do what most benefits you, so justifying societal responsibility in that case BY appealing to it benefiting society to do so fits fairly closely into that moral model, and that one always leads to contradictions with what we intuitively think is moral. That doesn’t disqualify it, but makes any appeal to it suspicious.

        So…yeah, we can and often do call unions between two people who aren’t having children, or even sex, ‘marriage.’

        That’s why I pointed out that you need to make a link to love or sex to get to a definition of marriage, and not merely rely on making the link to them agreeing to a partnership to raise a child or children. Friends wouldn’t have the love component and wouldn’t have to be having sex, but could agree to raise a child jointly, and that agreement would not be reasonably considered a marriage. And so, as I noted, you’d have to go back to love or sex to consider that agreement a marriage, and that ends up walking right back into the arguments about what those things are naturally for.

  5. Gunther Laird Says:

    >The definition of responsibility that I’m using is the idea of direct responsibility: through the actions of the two people involved the child is born and needs support, and so the two people responsible for the situation should be presumptively held responsible for that support that only arises because of what they, indeed, were responsible for through their actions and choices. The argument you raised says that we can say that society is responsible for the support and raising of that child because they benefit from its being raised properly. This, then, ties into the Egoistic motivation that they should be held morally responsible for the raising of the child so that they can ensure that the child is raised in a way that most benefits them. Egoism, as a moral theory, states that you are morally obligated to do what most benefits you, so justifying societal responsibility in that case BY appealing to it benefiting society to do so fits fairly closely into that moral model, and that one always leads to contradictions with what we intuitively think is moral. That doesn’t disqualify it, but makes any appeal to it suspicious.

    Ahhhh, okay, I think I see what you’re getting at. The problem I have there is that your definition of egoism would seem to encompass a wider variety of social customs than I think you’d be comfortable with. For instance, marriage is a social institution. 2 people living by themselves, entirely absent anyone else, can’t get married because there are no priests to marry them and no larger society to give them the benefits (taxes, insurance, whatever) marriage provides. So then if you want to discuss the telos of marriage as a social institution, you have to make the argument that it’s in society’s best interest to ensure children are raised by their biological parents–which would be egoism, if I understand you correctly. But if we reject egoism, and say that only the parents of a child should be on the hook for taking care of it, then what’s the point of marriage, since it involves society at large giving benefits to two people despite not being responsible for them having a child?

    > After all, two friends could easily form a partnership to raise children, but we wouldn’t call that a marriage by any stretch.

    Genuinely disagree with this here. Let’s say two people–same sex or different sex–agree to a partnership to raise a child without romantic love or sex or anything like that. What would such a partnership look like? Assuming the roomates are living together, which they should be given your arguments about attention above, then they’d find it very helpful to be able to have a joint bank account, tax benefits, help each other with insurance in case one gets sick, and so on, and so forth. When you look at it that way, it looks just like what we call marriage anyways.

    (Forgive the new thread, I might have misclicked something while writing this).

    • verbosestoic Says:

      So then if you want to discuss the telos of marriage as a social institution, you have to make the argument that it’s in society’s best interest to ensure children are raised by their biological parents–which would be egoism, if I understand you correctly.

      You make the same mistake here by insisting that actions taken by society are justified by the society itself strictly on the basis that the actions benefit society. Obviously, if society is taking actions with the primary benefit of benefiting itself, that’s Egoistic. However, society should be taking actions because those actions benefit the people in the society. So it would be obligated to recognize marriage only if it is better for those in the society to do so. And so it would justify marriage because it benefits the two people who want to get married while considering all the other people in the society. For the specific pro-creation case, society has an obligation to ensure that people live up to their responsibilities and only takes over when they legitimately cannot, which links up with my responsibility argument. So, again, you start from Egoism and then cannot escape it, but that makes for a poor society.

      Note that society can use the argument that people are better off in a society to take actions aimed at preserving it. But we can see that this can be challenged if the society is too oppressive.

      Assuming the roomates are living together, which they should be given your arguments about attention above, then they’d find it very helpful to be able to have a joint bank account, tax benefits, help each other with insurance in case one gets sick, and so on, and so forth. When you look at it that way, it looks just like what we call marriage anyways.

      You’re assuming that marriage is defined by the legal benefits that are given. This generally has things the wrong way around, as in general we decide what a marriage is and THEN decide what benefits such a thing should get.

      • Gunther Laird Says:

        >However, society should be taking actions because those actions benefit the people in the society.

        Ah-haaaaah. Okay, now I see what you’re getting at, and I 100% agree with you here–society should care (in a general sense, I mean) about the welfare of the individuals that make it up, of course. But this is a very strong argument in favor of gay marriage, not against it. Gay marriage obviously benefits gay folks themselves, it benefits all the other people in society (straight guys n’ gals can officiate gay weddings, if it’s easier for gay couples to buy houses together that benefits real estate agents, etc. etc. etc), ensures gay folks can live up to the responsibilities of any children they sire through surrogacy or whatever, and so on, and so forth. So in that sense, the telos of marriage is to bind two people together in a way that helps both them and the people around them, and that applies to both straights and gays.

        >You’re assuming that marriage is defined by the legal benefits that are given. This generally has things the wrong way around, as in general we decide what a marriage is and THEN decide what benefits such a thing should get.

        Well, okay. So in your argument before this one, “two friends could easily form a partnership to raise children, but we wouldn’t call that a marriage by any stretch,” what specifically would we call that partnership? What benefits, if any, would it get? If you would argue it would not only not be called marriage but also get fewer of the benefits associated with marriage, why?

      • verbosestoic Says:

        Gay marriage obviously benefits gay folks themselves, it benefits all the other people in society (straight guys n’ gals can officiate gay weddings, if it’s easier for gay couples to buy houses together that benefits real estate agents, etc. etc. etc), ensures gay folks can live up to the responsibilities of any children they sire through surrogacy or whatever, and so on, and so forth.

        Putting aside that some would obviously disagree with your perceived benefits and that they also seem less than impressive, the main issue here is that the counter from your opposition is that it shouldn’t be considered a marriage because, well, it ISN’T one. So, again, you’d need to demonstrate your last line that the telos of marriage really does include same-sex marriages, but that’s precisely what Feser at al are disagreeing with you over. So that doesn’t in any way resolve the debate. In fact, your comments about using a civil union instead tie back into that, since a society could provide all those benefits without tying it to marriage at all, avoiding the entire debate. And note that most homosexual people do not support civil unions.

        Well, okay. So in your argument before this one, “two friends could easily form a partnership to raise children, but we wouldn’t call that a marriage by any stretch,” what specifically would we call that partnership? What benefits, if any, would it get?

        There’s no reason to call it anything in particular or give it any benefits whatsoever. Take the example from the old TV series “My Two Dads”, where a woman has a child but doesn’t know which of the two is the father, and then dies so the child needs to be raised, and so they agree to raise the child together to ensure that she gets the support she needs. Any legal partnerships could be done specifically between the two of them, as well as any parental rights and issues. Society need not recognize it at all, let alone call it a marriage.

  6. Gunther Laird Says:

    >Putting aside that some would obviously disagree with your perceived benefits and that they also seem less than impressive,

    Well, I was being facetious, but there really do seem to be a lot of serious benefits to gay marriage. You should check out this book by Jonathan Rauch:

    His argument is that there are a variety of social benefits to gay marriage socially and economically, including some that might not seem immediately obvious. So under your view, if society should encourage behaviors that benefit both individuals in society and society generally, that’s an argument for gay marriage, and I would say that the fact that gay marriage has all these positive benefits is at least empirical backing for the idea that gay marriage is indeed part of the telos of marriage more generally, which would be Feser’s concern.

    >Any legal partnerships could be done specifically between the two of them, as well as any parental rights and issues. Society need not recognize it at all, let alone call it a marriage.

    I suppose so, but in practical terms it seems more efficient to permit same-sex marriage, because in the case you describe, legal partnerships and so on would have to be drawn up individually every time two people (gay or straight of the same gender) find themselves in such a situation, while marriage provides a pre-existing (as it were) legal framework so it’s easier for everybody. So I’d say for reasons of efficiency society has some interest in making it available generally.

  7. Final Thoughts on “The Unnecessary Science” | The Verbose Stoic Says:

    […] get them to where Laird wants them to be.  As an example, he was at least somewhat appreciative of my attempts to weaken Feser’s sexual ethics, and as I noted there my view was a bit of a trap for most progressives because to make those […]

  8. Cliff Wirt Says:

    “Not only is that really what it [sex] does [i.e., results in reproduction], not only is that what we’ve used it for for millenia, but it also is what evolution selected it and its specific traits for.”

    If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that the evolution of sex gives us evidence for what it is “for”, what its “purpose” is.
    Sex of course has an evolutionary “purpose” — there is something it is for and that it is “designed” to do. But I will follow Daniel Dennett and claim this “design” does not necessarily imply a “designer”.

    And what is “sex”? Let me propose the following: sex is (at least from the viewpoint of the male) the usually intense desire to ejaculate semen into (usually) another person (or mutatis mutandis to receive this from this other person), a desire which strongly motivates one to do just that and makes it much more likely that some such will happen. If the other person is female, the sex is heterosexual sex. If male, the sex is homosexual sex.

    Now whatever else heterosexual sex has evolved for, it has evolved for the perpetuation of the species. The species would not exist without it. So it would not be totally counterintuitive to claim that the main purpose of heterosexual sex is to propagate the species.

    But homosexual sex is also selected for by evolution. It has been apparent for a while from twin studies and other studies that homosexuality has a strong genetic component — about one third. No single gene determines that one will be gay, but a number of genes working together make it more likely that one will be so. Given that these genes would tend to inhibit reproduction, they surely have a very strong selective advantage that overwhelms that tendency. Getting strongly selected for, they get passed from generation to generation, with the result that there are always gay people around. So homosexual sex is a product of evolution, just as hetereosexuality is. If you take what evolution has selected a phenomenon for as evidence for its purpose, you would have to admit that homosexuality has a purpose.

    One possibility is that the “gay genes” increase pro-social behavior which increases the chances the genes will get passed to the next generation when a person is not exclusively gay. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02955/full The “gay genes” reduce the reproductive success of a person when they (along with other factors in the uterus) cause a person to be exclusively gay, but increase the reproductive success of those who do not become exclusively gay, or even those who are exclusively hetereosexual but retain enough of the fetus’ default feminine status to avoid becoming reactively aggressive hairy gorillas. (Not that there is always something wrong with that).

    But now notice that instead of talking about “what is the purpose or function of this set of sex organs belonging to a person”, I am now talking about the (evolutionary) purpose of this set of genes, genes that are typically distributed across a population. One thing that I find extremely unattractive about Natural Law Theory is its tendency to treat people as a set of “tools” existing partes extra partes, each with its own “function”. A very cold wind blows from those quarters.

    Far more humane is the view advanced by science (and by some philosophers, such as Merleau-Ponty) in which everything gets entangled with everything else — faculties with other faculties, genes with other genes and with various external factors — and the “proper function” of a particular set of organs taken by themselves becomes much less important.

    In this way, bringing evolution into the picture has a dissolving effect on Natural Law Theory. The vocabulary (“purpose”, “design”, “what something is for”) is similar, but if you bring evolution into the picture you can kiss NLT goodbye. Certainly at least so far as its strictures against homosexual sex is concerned.

    • verbosestoic Says:

      Sex of course has an evolutionary “purpose” — there is something it is for and that it is “designed” to do. But I will follow Daniel Dennett and claim this “design” does not necessarily imply a “designer”.

      I don’t argue that it does. The main point of that argument is to show that arguing that the main purpose of sex is something other than reproduction — like, say, simple pleasure — or at least that that view is unevidenced is not a good argument. It’s perfectly reasonable and likely more reasonable than the alternatives to argue that the purpose of sex is indeed reproduction.

      But homosexual sex is also selected for by evolution.

      Actually, just because something has a genetic component and exists in nature doesn’t mean that evolution selected for it, especially if that thing is relatively rare compared to the other traits that it is replacing. For example, blue eyes are relatively rare — you need to have two recessive genes as far as I can recall — but there is no selection benefit to having blue eyes (or a specific eye colour at all). Nearsightedness is also relatively rare and also genetic, but surely evolution did not select for it as it seems to only have a detrimental impact on people. So that there is a genetic pattern that can produce or make homosexuality more likely doesn’t mean that it was selected for by evolution. It could simply be a neutral by-product like blue eyes or even a detrimental one like nearsightedness. This, them would make your analysis of what benefit it might have pointless, since we’d need to establish that it even has one in the first place.

      But now notice that instead of talking about “what is the purpose or function of this set of sex organs belonging to a person”, I am now talking about the (evolutionary) purpose of this set of genes, genes that are typically distributed across a population. One thing that I find extremely unattractive about Natural Law Theory is its tendency to treat people as a set of “tools” existing partes extra partes, each with its own “function”.

      The argument here would be that the genes produce faculties and then the faculties have a purpose, which may or may not follow directly or align exactly with what the genes are doing. Again, my point was to follow multiple lines of argument to show that it’s hard to argue that the purpose of sex and the sexual faculties isn’t reproduction, not to reduce the argument to genes entirely. We can analyze purpose in multiple ways.

  9. Evolution, Being Gay, And Natural Law Theory | cliffengelwirt Says:

    […] “Not only is that really what it [sex] does [i.e., results in reproduction], not only is that what we’ve used it for for millenia, but it also is what evolution selected it and its specific traits for”, says the Verbose Stoic: https://verbosestoic.wordpress.com/…/the-unnecessary…/ […]

  10. Cliff Wirt Says:

    “Actually, just because something has a genetic component and exists in nature doesn’t mean that evolution selected for it, especially if that thing is relatively rare compared to the other traits that it is replacing. For example, blue eyes are relatively rare — you need to have two recessive genes as far as I can recall — but there is no selection benefit to having blue eyes (or a specific eye colour at all). Nearsightedness is also relatively rare and also genetic, but surely evolution did not select for it as it seems to only have a detrimental impact on people. So that there is a genetic pattern that can produce or make homosexuality more likely doesn’t mean that it was selected for by evolution. It could simply be a neutral by-product like blue eyes or even a detrimental one like nearsightedness.” Well, of course the literature discusses homosexuality so much because it would it would seem there HAS to be a selective advantage to the genes that make it more likely one would be exclusively gay, given the obvious reproductive disadvantage. As the article I linked to states:

    “Of itself, homosexual sexual behavior will not yield offspring, and consequently individuals expressing strong SSSA that are mostly or exclusively homosexual are presumed to have lower fitness and reproductive success. How then did the trait evolve, and how is it maintained in populations?”

    From what I have read in the literature, if the genes were random mutations, one would expect them to get selected out given the reproductive disadvantage. But they don’t get selected out. Neither does the gene for sickle cell anemia in Africa and some other places: one would expect the gene to get selected out because of its obvious reproductive disadvantage. But it doesn’t get selected out because if generates a huge advantage in fighting malaria among those who do not actually come down with sickle cell anemia. The reproductive advantage among the many drastically outweighs the reproductive disadvantage among the few.

    Even a superficial glance at the literature on the genetics of homosexuality will show that the focus is on determining the corresponding selective advantage of the gay genes. The literature is takes as given the idea that given the reproductive disadvantage among the few, there has to be a very strong reproductive advantage among the many, since random mutations won’t explain the persistence of the gay genes. The answer provided by the article I linked to (and other articles) is that the genes encourage more prosocial behavior, giving those who do not become attracted exclusively to the same sex a reproductive advantage.

    So if you take evolutionary selective advantage to be evidence for the “purpose” of a phenomenon, as you seem to be doing, the pressure on you is growing, as the science advances, to admit that the gay genes serve an evolutionary purpose. Maybe the science will and up going elsewhere, but for the past few decades granting an evolutionary purpose to the gay genes is where the science is heading.

    By the way, I wasn’t accusing you of claiming that talk about purpose implied a designer. I just didn’t anyone to think that I am adhering to the Intelligent Design thesis when I talk about purpose. That would have been hugely embarrassing to me.

    • theoriginalmrx Says:

      So if you take evolutionary selective advantage to be evidence for the “purpose” of a phenomenon, as you seem to be doing, the pressure on you is growing, as the science advances, to admit that the gay genes serve an evolutionary purpose.

      By your account, that “evolutionary purpose” would be pro-social behaviour, not homosexuality. So it would be false to say that homosexuality is “selected for” by evolution; it’s pro-social behaviour which is being selected, with homosexuality just an unintended by-product.

    • verbosestoic Says:

      Well, of course the literature discusses homosexuality so much because it would it would seem there HAS to be a selective advantage to the genes that make it more likely one would be exclusively gay, given the obvious reproductive disadvantage.

      This is exactly what I challenged though: if a trait is a rare or at least uncommon expression of that genetic combination and the more common expression has strong selective value, then all we need do is appeal to that strong selective value and note that the times when it “goes wrong” aren’t enough to overturn that. So most of the time it ends up with heterosexuality and on rare occasions it ends up with homosexuality, but if it follows from combining genes to get heterosexuality with rare cases where it gives homosexuality there is nothing that needs to be explained: the process usually produces heterosexuality, which is selected for; it sometimes produces homosexuality, which is selected against; but from this the overall process is adaptive enough that the small number of times it “goes wrong” is not enough to make another process work better. As we can see with nearsightedness. Or even with the classic example of natural selection, the peppered moth. Both colours could come from the process, and it was always the case that one colour was rare because it wasn’t very adaptive, but when that colour became more adaptive the process started favouring that colour over the other, but it was never able to eliminate the other expression entirely.

      So this line of analysis is not needed, so those pursuing it really need to find a reason why we’d need this analysis in the first place. And I don’t see any pressure growing yet.

      Also, my argument there was just to show that when we look at all the things that we could use to determine a purpose for sex, they all come up by default to it being for reproduction. Evolution was just one of those. And even if your argument held, the advantage it has was not about sex itself but was about sexual desire, which wouldn’t impact the actual purpose of sex.

  11. Cliff Wirt Says:

    Nope, because in order to get the “intended” prosocial behavior nature takes the route of having the fetus be more likely via the “gay genes” to resist whatever masculinizing influences are at work in the womb. That is to say, homosexuality — the brain’s retaining more of its default feminine character — is the means by which nature gets the prosocial behavior in males. Saying that homosexuality is the “unintended by-product” of getting the more prosocial behavior is like saying that my going through Cedar City is the “unintended by-product” of going from St. George to Salt Lake CIty, or that my hammering a nail in order to fasten something is an “unintended by-product” of fastening that thing. The “in order to” is part and parcel of the intention.

    It would be a mistake, by the way, to define homosexuality by just m2m sex. That would be crudely reductionistic. More apt would be to define homosexuality as the whole range of behaviors, traits, and greater likelihoods that flow from having a more feminine brain — including SSSA, having a queer eye for the straight guy, being more likely not to be interested in sports, the more prosocial behavior, and so on. In order to get the prosocial behavior, nature takes the entire package — homosexuality.

    • theoriginalmrx Says:

      You said: “The literature is takes as given the idea that given the reproductive disadvantage among the few, there has to be a very strong reproductive advantage among the many, since random mutations won’t explain the persistence of the gay genes.” If a set of genes cause reproductive advantage among the many and reproductive disadvantage among the few, that sure looks to me like the reproductive advantage is the goal and the reproductive disadvantage is the side-effect. It also makes no sense to say that evolution gets a reproductive advantage by means of a reproductive disadvantage.

      More apt would be to define homosexuality as the whole range of behaviors … including … more prosocial behavior, and so on.

      Sure, if you define “homosexuality” broadly enough to include pro-social behaviour, nature does select for homosexuality. But most people don’t define the term that broadly, so your argument here rests on an equivocation.

  12. Cliff Wirt Says:

    “It also makes no sense to say that evolution gets a reproductive advantage by means of a reproductive disadvantage.”

    Did you read what I said? Further discussion is pointless. I am done here. Goodbye.

  13. The Direct Selective Advantage Of Same-Sex Sexual Attraction (SSSA) | cliffengelwirt Says:

    […] The Verbose Stoic, at https://verbosestoic.wordpress.com/2021/01/18/the-unnecessary-science-part-3/ […]

  14. Things That Natural Lawyers Say (0) | cliffengelwirt Says:

    […] commenting at https://verbosestoic.wordpress.com/2021/01/18/the-unnecessary-science-part-3/, last accessed […]

  15. Things That Natural Lawyers Say (1) | cliffengelwirt Says:

    […] Verbose Stoic, at https://verbosestoic.wordpress.com/2021/01/18/the-unnecessary-science-part-3/, last accessed […]

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