So, after Alek Minassian engaged in a mass killing, seemingly targeting women after making a post talking about Incels, the whole idea of men, in particular, who can’t get sex has come to the fore, just as it did when Elliot Rodger went on his shooting spree. I made a post talking about how things weren’t that simple sometime around then — I was late as usual — and I guess I should talk about things like that now. And, again, as usual, the main ideas are that these men were misogynistic from the start and that was why they couldn’t get sex, and that women can’t get sex, too, and don’t go off on these sorts of things. Adam Lee made two posts on this, and in a comment, a reply to someone talking about a woman who keeps meeting jerks, really reveals the issue with his “misognyist first” attitude:
Secondly, I think if everyone your friend dates has the same problem, it’s time to start wondering why she’s attracted to that type of person.
Here’s an alternative hypothesis: Most men are sexist and entitled, so a random sampling would be expected to contain a high proportion of them.
If you look back through the comment thread, the original comment talked about men being such jerks that she couldn’t even get past one or maybe two dates with them. Somehow, Lee is taking the purported background sexism and elevating it to that level. And it just feeds into the issue, where somehow this woman can pick up on their complete sexism and entitlement and that’s why those men can’t get dates or sex … except that a) there are a number of men who are far more sexist than the baseline that Lee would insist most men are at who still get plenty of sex and b) those jerks are still getting dates with a woman that the original commenter said was an actual model, and so are doing far better than most of the men who would fall into the Incel Movement. So, no, that’s not exactly credible.
Also note that in the second post, he deliberately takes on a comment that he then proceeds to completely mock, and which essentially talked about legalizing prostitution to give leverage to men against women, which he seems to have misinterpreted besides (it seems more likely that the original poster advocated for that as a response to a spouse or partner withholding sex, as opposed to using denying her sex as a way to manipulate her. At best, he’d likely use it as a way to say that if she didn’t do what he wants he will leave because sex is the most important thing to him and if he can get it elsewhere he doesn’t need her. Which is still bad, but not really what Lee was calling him out on). Lee doesn’t take on anything like a reasonable position, and this is consistent among the comments. I don’t know if the normal boards for the Incel Movement have reasonable views, but as presented it seems like the only thing to talk about here are the very extreme views, again presented as being their starting point, with the lack of sex being the result of those views, and not the cause of them.
In my experience, that’s not always true, and it might even not be generally true. Most of the worst misogynists in the movement might well have started out as generally good people who found that the lack of sex and the reactions of society to their lack of sex angered them, and made it easy to fall into blaming women because they had no way out and were tired of blaming themselves and having people blame them for things that didn’t seem to be under their own control.
And this post is a prime example of those sorts of reaction. She’s enraged by those with these attitudes and who might or do kill people because of them, but her comments simply perpetrate the same myths and misunderstandings that enrage these men in the first place.
She starts with this:
So why do these men feel that they deserve sex? (I know, I know. It’s the Patriarchy.) But seriously, why do they not understand that no one has a right to sex with another person? That sex is not a commodity and that no one has a right to another person’s body. From men banging on about being friend zoned despite their best efforts to others making highly inappropriate sexual approaches on dating apps because they don’t see that they need to do more than just demand, there is a whole swath of men who seem to think that Life owes them Sex.
And they can believe this aggressively. Look at the prevalence of rape culture. Look at #MeToo. Look at this incessant rise of ‘incel’ or ‘involuntary celibacy’ and its association with acts of mass violence. And, to a calmer but no less significant extent, look at the more generalised and widespread sense of entitlement among so many men, as GOTN so eloquently wrote earlier this week.
But … how does she know that, in general, they do feel that way? I used to hang around on a lot of shyness newsgroups, and we had at least one if not more really misogynistic men there, but in general it doesn’t seem like they started — and often even finished — at the point of thinking that they were entitled to sex. For the most part, it seemed to me that their biggest sticking points were that if they complained about not having sex, or about women’s selection processes, they were called losers and told to suck it up, while women were generally given more sympathy. It’s easier for women to blame their problems on men — men are shallow and obsessed with looks, for example — and get a sympathetic response than it is for men to do the same thing, as seen with Lee’s response above to the suggestion that a woman who keeps getting dates with jerks might want to adjust her selection criteria. And it’s also a rather bad move to compare “incels” with #MeToo because in the latter case those men who felt entitled to it had reason to feel that way: because whether the women found their power appealing or whether they could abuse that power to get women to have sex with them — and I’m sure that both happened, often in the same person — they were, in fact, getting sex from pretty much any woman they wanted to have sex with. And since any woman rejecting them was a threat to their power, they would feel they had to respond to demonstrate that they still had that power.
The “incels” don’t have any such power. If they did, then they wouldn’t be “incels”. For the most part, the complaints were always about not even getting a shot, and about getting called a loser if they didn’t want to keep trying the same old advice that didn’t work for them, not about how they were “owed” sex. The closest they tended to get to that was “I act the way people say you should act, I try to respect women, I try to not make it all about sex, and yet I don’t even get dates while the jerk who only wants sex with them gets sex on the first date, or even without one. Shouldn’t I get something for trying to be a good guy?”. This is the heart of Nice Guy(tm) complaints, and it always ignores that they are, indeed trying to be Nice Guys while the “better alternatives” aren’t even trying, and yet are seen as better just because they succeed.
She goes on in a Twitter rant to say more cluelessly bad comments:
Every time I read about violent, self righteous incels I get furious, because *plenty of women spend their lives feeling un****able*, but instead of being taught that the world owes them sex they’re taught to think they’re just worthless people.
I know what it’s like to feel like everyone else is off in the world doing normal sex things while you’re forever alone. But women who feel that way rarely seem to see those feelings as justifications to take our anger out on strangers and the world at large.
It’s not that it’s “easier” for women to get laid (as incel men all seem to think). The difference is that men are taught that the world owes them sex and love, and women are taught that sex and love are a reward you get for shaping yourself into someone worthy of love.
Yes, that has to be it. That’s clearly why a man who is a virgin is a loser that many women will or will at least feel that they should avoid simply because he is a virgin while a virgin woman is generally considered very desirable. That’s why men are generally expected to make the first move and do all of the wining and dining and, in general, have to make sure that they “show her a good time”. All she has to do is show up and look pretty while he has to do all the organizing and all the paying, but clearly he thinks he’s owed sex and love while she’s had to shape herself into someone worthy of love. Riiiiiiight.
Look, she’s right that women have it harder than men think. One big issue, for example, is that looks are indeed a primary factor in how men generally select women to date — my theory is that if you don’t really know anything about someone and have multiple options and limited approaches, you are more likely to go for the one who is the “best” by the criteria you can evaluate before an approach, which is looks — women have to spend a lot of time trying to maximize their looks … but can’t look like they’re doing that. Not enough effort? They’re derided for not looking good, and lose out to their competition. Seem to spend too much effort? They’re vain and, recently, seen as dishonest … at least by the men that she is talking about here. So they can’t win on that score. On the flip side, though, in general they can at least blame their looks for their lack of success without getting the standard “Lots of women without looks get dates!” line tossed at them.
I’m even going to accept that her case is a case where she was lonely and had self-confidence issues, and that that was something that she has now happily moved on from. Her case is just a bad example here, and so an example of how clueless the responses can be:
So here it is. Before my husband, no one had ever wanted to have sex with me a fourth time. A boyfriend and a casual fling made it to three, there were two sets of two-night stands, but all my other previous sexual experiences were one night stands. And there weren’t that many of them either. In the 15 years that I have been having partnered sex, I have had 9 partners but when 5 of those were just one sexual encounter, it doesn’t add up to much and, with hindsight but not much surprise, the sex before my husband was also almost universally mediocre. How could it be otherwise? We didn’t know each other well and we certainly didn’t know each other’s bodies well. And that was everything I knew. Nothing kinky, nothing exploratory, nothing lasting. Just nothing expect unrequited love, heartbreak and rejection.
Now I know that 9 sexual partners is above average, and having sex 15 times in the 10 years before meeting my husband isn’t really nothing, but it was little enough that it bothered me. Why didn’t anyone want to spend more than one or two nights with me? Was it worse that so few people wanted to fuck me or that those who did didn’t want to **** me again? It bothered me that I seemed only worthy of casual sex when I wanted more. I wanted to believe that I was worth more, but I couldn’t. I started to dwell on all the reasons that I wasn’t wanted, all the reasons why I wasn’t enough.
So, she’d had more sexual partners than average, and had had sex more than once a year … and thinks that can compare to men who have never had sex? Or who might have had one or two partners? Really?!? Yeah, this could cause issues for her and her self-esteem. She had to wonder why no one wanted to be in a relationship with her (although her focus on not wanting to have sex with her more than four times seems to really miss the point). And she had to feel, rightly or wrongly, that she was having far less sex than almost everyone else was having. And that hurts. So I sympathize. But at least she could point to men who found her attractive enough for casual sex, considering that, again, she had more partners than the average. The men she’s talking about here didn’t even have that, and so most of them would love to have the success she’s had. Yes, women get lonely, too, and have issues, but that doesn’t make all of those issues interchangeable. It’s kinda like the women who came into shyness newsgroups complaining that they can’t talk to their husband’s boss when there were guys who couldn’t get any kind of a date. Yes, it was a problem for them and yes, they deserved help, and yes a lot of those guys were guys that the forum had given up on, but it should be easy to see why those guys didn’t think her problems were as bad as theirs, and got upset that they perceived that they were treated that way.
She finishes this way:
Men; you need to put aside your entitlement and realise that nobody owes you anything. You’re not single because you’re short, it’s because you’re an arsehole. Nice guys don’t finish last, you’re just not as nice as you think you are. Paying for dinner does not guarantee sex, buying gifts does not guarantee sex, treating someone with respect does not guarantee sex because honestly you should just be doing that anyway! You have to accept rejection gracefully, you have to accept boundaries and limits. And you have to understand and accept that you can do everything ‘right’ and still not get laid, and that does not give you any right to be angry or demanding or ****ing rapey.
Which is so incredibly clueless that it makes me laugh. Arseholes get sex, so that they’re an arsehole probably isn’t the only or maybe even the main issue here. Nice guys may not finish last, but there’s no evidence that they finish first either. And treating people with respect should make you more successful at getting sex than people who aren’t, and there’s no evidence that men who don’t treat women with respect are less successful than those who do. And speaking from personal experience, I have accepted rejection gracefully, accepting boundaries and limits except in some cases where I screwed up, accepting that I can do things right and not get anywhere, and never got angry or demanding or rapey, and yet her terrible success rating is still miles ahead of mine. I gave up, and worked on other things, like she did. I didn’t get any kind of relationship, though, and she did. Maybe, just maybe, she should consider that she doesn’t really know what it’s like for men in general and in particular for men in these situations.
Because giving this sort of advice is only going to have one outcome: men are going to ignore it and ignore you, even when you say things that are right. And that leaves them open to people who are not as nice as you and who are more misogynistic and bitter. You probably don’t want more men ending up there.
Final Thoughts on My Persona 3 Replay
May 30, 2018So, I finished my replay of Persona 3 FES, taking about 50 hours to finish it.
I’m still amazed by how good that game actually is. Yes, the combat and even the S-links can drag at times and be boring, especially when you can only play for a few hours. It took me well over two hours just to finish the last month before the final battle, and all I was really doing there was finishing S-links and trying desperately to get Mitsuru’s finished before the end of the game (which I did manage). That’s a bit long considering that I wasn’t doing much and wasn’t even running dungeons.
But the gameplay is still entertaining. The story is still great. The characters are still interesting. The backstory works. The S-links work, and are tightly tied into the ending, and FES adds the follow-ups at the end of the game that really bring them home. The parts that drag fade into the background of the satisfying experience you get at the end of the game when everything comes together. I’ve put over 250 hours into Persona 3 FES — which doesn’t count the hours I’ve put into plain Persona 3 and P3P — and it’s still worth replaying.
How come no other game in this genre has been able to do that?
Anyway, after this I’m probably going to go back to the beginning and play Persona, since my PSP is now repaired.
Posted in Not-So-Casual Commentary, Video Games | 1 Comment »